Nitrate Scrap Gold Refining Chem Here is a 1 pound batch of sodium nitrate. You
can make either nitric acid or aqua regia. You can make 2 batches of Aqua Regia
or about 1 gallon of nitric acid. Below I tell how to make the nitric acid. If
you want to make aqua regia, you have to get that recipe from Steve, his seller
id is "no_reserve" here on ebay. If you need me to send you the info
from Shor, I will be happy to send the info, just check out my free help page
first! This will be shipped in compliance with USPS Pub 52. It is non toxic,
non flamable and non explosive substance. This stuff is so safe, the nitrogen
will make your plants green or you can even use it to cure meats! PLEASE READ
When the sale is done, I send my email through Paypal after the sale without
the shipping included. You can choose how you want it shipped, otherwise,
Please Prepay and ADD $5.50 postage inside the USA via priority mail. This will
be mailed to the USA ONLY, sorry but these are the rules ebay and the post
office have set for things like this. If you have not read down this far and
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going to make fun of you for NOT reading and add a $5.00 handling fee to the
total. The reason why I am adding this to my listing is, I am finding more and
more people are not reading the pages as they should. Remember, this by
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placing your bid! The extra $5 is just a joke for those of you who do not know
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Monday through Thursday. If you have any questions, I will answer them all. I
take Paypal, personal checks, money orders, gold, silver and right arms for
payments! Ok Here is the deal. If you have ever had any problems with gold
refining and you need your problems solved, just ask and I can solve the
problems for you for FREE. I will not charge you 1 red cent. Just do not ask me
where to find gold or who to sell your gold to because I will tell you that I
You can email me and all your problems can be answered with a simple email or I may need to talk to you on the phone.
DO NOT EMAIL ME AND DEMAND THAT I SEND YOU THINGS
I am getting lots of emails with people not reading or understanding what this help is for so I will say it a little clearer. IF you REFINE gold now or are starting to refine gold and you need some help with a problem of refining gold, then I will help you FREE of charge.
Please do not email me asking me how much gold can be recovered from a item or how much gold you can get from a batch of computers. Computers and parts have been made for a long time and the specs are all different and not the same. Think of it this way, can you tell me how much a car is worth?
There is something else you need to remember, I am doing this free refining help out of the goodness of my heart and I am not making anything by helping with emails or phone calls. If you would want me to help answer other questions such as how much gold may be in a batch or how to get started in refining at home, offer me something in return! Simple and fast questions will still be answered for free!
There are other sellers who say they refine gold. What they are doing is just buying the gold you refine and not refining the gold themselves. Steve and I do our own refining and I personally refined up to 5 ounces per week. I have another friend who has been able to refine up to 1 pound per week!!! Now that is some chunk of gold!!!!
This is a basic refining lesson on how everything is done and depending on how much or how far you want to go, some steps may be skipped while others MUST be followed to a T
you really do not want to put the whole boards in unless you want to work with a 2 step refining process to go after silver, palladium, then platinum, rhodium and lastly, gold. If you do this, the boards need to be crushed or burnt and then the steel must be removed before processing. A 2 step process needs to start off with nitric acid for the silver and palladium and then go to aqua regia to dissolve the gold, platinum and rhodium.
If you go after just the gold, then it all has to be clipped off the boards first and keep the pins separate from chips and fingers. Pins need to be worked with all on there own because of tin and brass.
There are things that I like to use nitric acid for and when I need it, I just make my own batch up to use. It is easy and in fact, I have another batch mixing up in the wash room so I can do some silver refining. All that needs to be done is mix some sodium nitrate into sulfuric acid(car battery or drain opener). It works out to about 1 quart to 1/2 cup sodium nitrate to make a mild nitric acid. Let the sodium nitrate sit over night to dissolve. Pour off the acid and it there is any solid sodium nitrate left in the bottom, save that for the next batch of nitric acid you make. If I wanted to make it stronger, then it would be boiled and run through a condensing coil like one would make whiskey! :) The condensed liquid is close to a 70% nitric acid.
If you are going to be working with whole computer boards, this is my advice to everyone. I think it is a little much for someone to do, but IF you are willing to do the work, you can have fun but the acids is not something that is going to be for the weak of heart.
Ok, with whole boards, you WILL need to crush every part of it to a fine dust or powder. A hammermill or some kind of rock crusher will do the trick. A strong magnet will also be needed to pull out the steel parts as they do not need to be processed unless they are coated with gold and they can be refined later.
You will need to either be willing to use Sodium Cyanide and risk possible death from using it or, do a 2 step refining process to recover the gold, silver and platinum group metals.
I am sure if you were to pick, you would pick the second choice as it is safer, yet it is still very hazardous since you would be working with strong acids.
The first thing you would need to do is to use nitric acid to dissolve out any silver or palladium. Silver can NOT be fully dissolved in Aqua regia as it gets a white coating on the surface of the silver and the silver that does dissolve acts as a mask that will HIDE gold when it is dissolved together. That will cause you terrible losses of gold.
Yes, some silver will dissolve in aqua regia, but it is going to only dissolve in small amounts depending on the amount of aqua regia you mix and the size of the silver items that are being dissolved. This is why we go with nitric acid FIRST!!!
Once the silver and palladium is dissolved using nitric acid, then you MUST convert over to either the Aqua Regia or cyanide to dissolve the gold and platinum. To dissolve the gold, a temp of about 70f or about will work fine but for any platinum, it must be boiling to dissolve!
Nitric acid will never ever dissolve gold or platinum or rhodium. Nitric acid will dissolve silver and palladium and copper.
To get the silver out, use table salt and it will drop as a white cottage cheese looking substance. Palladium needs sodium chlorate which may be found in a weed killer that kills ALL weeds and brush. Check with your local garden shop for it in a liquid form.
Palladium will drop out looking kind of yellow then turn a blue-green, but you need to check it with stannous chloride to see if it is in the mix.
DIMETHYLGLYOXIME can also be used to drop out palladium from either nitric acid or aqua regia.
The DMG is very very expensive and it runs as much as $1 per gram. The Sodium Chlorate can be almost as hard to find!
Stannous chloride is made by dissolving 95% tin and 5% antimony in hcl/muriatic acid. This will last for about 1 week in a closed container.
Chips may or may not contain any of the PGM's, but in any case, it could be worth while going after if the prices are what they are at today.
I go after the silver first, then palladium with nitric acid , then I mix 1 quart of aqua regia to 100 grams of any metals left over for dissolving the platinum and gold. Platinum MUST be in boiling aqua regia to dissolve.
Ammonium Chloride is used for dropping platinum. Before the urea is added for getting the gold out. Drop the platinum with the heated and boiling with ac and it rest and watch for a red mud to drop. Just add a little ac to the aqua regia at a time and test with the stannous chloride after each pour off.
The stannous chloride will show a deep yellow if platinum and iridium is present.
After ALL your platinum is dropped, let the aqua regia sit for 25 hours. DO NOT TOUCH IT FOR ANY REASON!!!! then CAREFULLY pour the aqua regia off and save anything that has settled on the bottom. If you have been lucky, you will have found rhodium!!!!!
Test the aqua regia with the stannous chloride to make sure you really do have gold there before continuing. Gold shows a deep purple to black when it is dissolved in aqua regia or cyanide
When adding the urea, just add a few particles to see if it will fizz, if it does not fizz, heat the aqua regia up to about 120 and then add the urea and it should fizz away. When it stops fizzing after adding as much urea as it will take, mix 1 ounce of sodium metabisulfite into 8 ounces of HOT water and stir in part of what you mixed and watch for a color change in the aqua regia and then the black mud settling to the bottom of your container after about 1/2 hour later. If there is the black mud at the bottom, pour off the ar leaving the mud in the bottom and test again with stannous chloride. If it tests positive for gold, add a little more smb. Do this until there is no gold showing up with the stannous chloride tests.
DO NOT think that if you just add smb you will be ok because, you may just cause problems and have a white cloud down in the bottom in with your gold!
see me for the instruction links, just be nice when you ask After you wash the gold mud with ammonia and water several times to make sure the odd metals are washed away, you can either use a coffee filter or a Whatman filter. I have found with coffee filters, some of the gold washes through and may be lost. I have found that a 2.5 micron filter may be a slow filter for filtering, but it catches ALL the gold or pmg's. When you use a filter, you will want to get the mud in the center of the filter and then twist the filter to make like a Hershey Kiss and dip it in alcohol. The filter will burn away and the gold will melt into a nugget!
It would be wise to save your ammonia when you are washing off your mud and check it for dissolved platinum. Platinum will redissolve into the ammonia if any dropped or is mixed with your gold!
*NOTE*when you do any refining, it MUST be done outside because of the gasses that are left off
Do not fall for someone asking you for $70 to get the gold and PMG's out of your dissolved solution. It is so easy you can do it yourself with first copper and then a final going over using aluminum. The copper will cause your gold, silver and PMG's to drop and then the aluminum will cause the copper and any traces of gold that could be as little as 1ppm to drop.
If you want to make simple Nitric Acid without having to go out and buy it, dissolve some SN(Sodium Nitrate) into Sulfuric acid. The way that has been the easiest so far is just use less than 1 cup of SN to 1 quart of Sulfuric. If the SN does not dissolve all the way, that is ok, just pour off the dissolved liquid and that will eat away just your copper, nickle or other metals leaving just the gold plate or platinum.
DO NOT DO THIS TO A BUTTON, THAT BUTTON MAY BE WORTH $2500 AND YOU NOT EVEN KNOW IT!!! DO NOT DO THIS TO GOLD BULLION MILITARY ITEMS AS SOME OF THE PATCHES OR STRIPES COULD BE WORTH SEVERAL HUNDRED $$$$!!!! I do not know why ANYONE would suggest you would be better off with the minute amount of gold from some items that could have a far greater antique value
The other seller even wants you to refine gold coins!?!? Now why is that??? A gold coin could be worth more than the bullion value and yet they want you to make a pure gold chunk of gold out of it, WHY?????? Those gold coins are .900 fine and above already!!!!!!!
These other people are even saying that Shor International do not know how to gold refine. I would like to make a challenge! Can They take a chunk a 5 gram chunk of 14k gold and bring back 5 grams of 14k???? Well, I CAN!!!!!! :p and I am willing to share all the secrets for FREE!!!!!!!!!!!
remember, this help is all FREE and I will add more here as time goes on!!
If you need any chems, look at my list and store, I may have what you need!
Here is a tip, when you dissolving your gold using Aqua Regia in a 1 quart amount, KEEP your batches to 1 pound of fingers or ceramic processors or 150 grams of pins. If you are doing solid gold, then keep those batches to under 50 grams. If you DO NOT DO THIS, it WILL cause you problems and the gold will NOT drop out. Any gold that starts to drop just redissolves back into the solution and you will NOT see any gold fall to the bottom. This is the biggest mistake everyone makes and why they say they are not getting any gold out.
If a insoluble white material drops out with the gold it is probably cuprous chloride that has been reduced from cupric chloride.
This is formed when too much SMB Precipitant is added and there is reason to believe that a too rapid addition of SMB Precipitant is a factor in the formation of cuprous chloride. If it is present it will dissolve in strong hydrochloric acid. It also dissolves in ammonium hydroxide forming a deep blue solution. Hard water will also form this white material as calcium or gypsum crystals. Plain household ammonia will work to test if the white material is cuprous chloride.
Since it is cold in some areas, this is a good tip for everyone. If it is cold, try heating up your aqua regia to help make things go smoother and faster. If things do not dissolve all the way, the heat will help dissolve the gold and platinum once the temp reaches about 150 to boiling. Heating up the aqua regia will also help the urea to fizz before dropping out the gold.
Use the AC before adding the urea to drop out your platinum. Once the Urea is added, the platinum will not drop unless aluminum is added, then you are going to have to refine it again and start all over!!!! we do not want to do that and waste the supplies now do we?????
I have something for everyone to try with some PII and higher processors. After you have drooped out all your gold from from 486's, try taking your spent solution and place a few PII's in the green liquid and let the processors sit for about 1 week. You will find that the pins will fall right off and be hollow gold legs. The spent AR will have eaten away the non gold metal from the legs that you can filter off and melt into gold nuggets!!!! You would still need to break open the processors and refine the processor bodies to get the other gold out from the solder and wires that are on the inside!!! This is a safe fun thing to try and you will not take any chances in losing any gold for those that are afraid of dissolving gold!!!:)hehehehe
Remember, gathering gold flakes after using Nitric Acid is not gold refining, that is recovery. When refining gold, you must digest it first and then make the pure gold come back out as a sponge.
If any of you are wondering why we refine gold like this it is because we want to stay away from the deadly poisons. We do not use mercury, arsenic, cyanide or even lead as some people would want you to try. This is the safest way to refine gold unless you want to run up your electric bill by doing it by plating it out???
If you really want to go after the Cyanide process for gold and PMG's, try finding a little report by the Bureau of Mines, US Department of the interior on Recovery of PMG from virgin automotive catalysts by Cyanide leaching. This was produced at the Reno Research Center 1605 Evans Ave, Reno, Nevada 89512-2295. They are closed now, but copies are avaliable in some libraries.
Yes, I have read her books on refining and it is something that I would not want to die over doing or trying. Just email me and I will give you free advice on refining and then you can buy from Me here or Steve at no_reserve elsewhere on ebay!
Ps, in one of her books, she says to SEND the gold and PMG's to a refiner so they can refine it for you!!!! :) hehehehehehe
Here is a little new info for everyone, gold_tutor is using Aqua Regia for her refining in her old Platinum book so do not let her BS you into believing that Steve or I do not know what we are doing with refining. I learned how to refine gold just over 26 years ago from my friend Tom by using copper to make gold drop
Hey Megan aka gold_tutor, KEEP YOUR NOSE OUT OF MY BUSINESS!!!!! If you go emailing the people I deal with again, you are going to see your name on here more and more!!!!
Keep watching this or send me a email because I will be adding other gold refining processes as I get finished writing everything up. The next one I write will be on aqua regia, baking soda and ferrous sulfate! It will get posted here for everyone to read and see for FREE
The best places to find gold and platinum group metals is going to be at yard sales, thrift shops, estate sales, small pawn shops, antique shops, 2nd hand shops, ham fests, junk yards and even running ads in your local paper to buy old computers and gold jewelry. Don't forget to check with your dentist too, they have things piling up in the drawers gold refining question and answers Question & Answer Posted on Q: Dear Doc, Can you provide me with info about recovering PMG and palladium with AR and the use of Sodium Chlorate. In your writings you specify that you can direct me to instructions, can you provide the link or send me info. It will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance. May-31-06 A: that info has already been added to the free help page on refining pmg's. It is towards the upper half of the page. cheers, Charles Q: Hey man, thanks soooo much for all your great advice! Here is my question, after I dropped all the gold (from PC fingures) from my AR, I put an aluminum heatsink in the spent AR. It fizzed and boiled like crazy. I checked on it again 24 hours later, and ALL the liquid was gone and there is a thick layer of red (brick colored) mad at the bottom. Do you know what that it? Thank you for your time - jeremy May-27-06 A: hey Jeremy, that stuff is copper if it is from fingers. If you had other stuff in it, then it could have nickle. Since you said there was no liquid left, you will also have traces of the aluminum or zinc depending on what the heat sink is made of. Just add water to wash out the dissolved alluminum and pour it off saving just the copper mud for melting later. cheers, Charles Q: I am interested in recovery/refining Platinum Group Metals exclusivively from catalytic converters. I would like to purchase documentation that detailed the process. I gather you are not a fan of Megan Rose's work yet she claims to have the process documented and for sale. Do you offer a book or cd? If not who's work would you recommend? Thank You? May-27-06 A: like I said near the bottom of my help page, megan STOLE the info from the US Government. she plagerized the info on refining cc's. that is public info which is a report by the Bureau of Mines, US Department of the interior on Recovery of PMG from virgin automotive catalysts by Cyanide leaching. This was produced at the Reno Research Center 1605 Evans Ave, Reno, Nevada 89512-2295. They are closed now, but copies are avaliable in some libraries. Q: I have been mixing A/R for about 20 years now buying the acids from suppy house. Is it cheaper to buy the materials such as drain cleaner and battery acid retail and mix them to make the acids or buy the pure acid and mix them yourself? Been reading your Q and A and found many good points. May-25-06 A: here in va it is really hard to go to a supply house to buy nitric after 9-11. There are other people who can not get nitric either, that is why having another option is so important. This is why we make our own. Is it cheaper? That all depends on what your having to pay for the pure stuff vs using hcl and sn. With this process, all you use is muratic and sn to make ar with no need to make nitric first Q: Hello, good job with spreading all the information!! I have a quick question and it may be helpfull to many. I am working with silver. My question is how much nitric should one use for each oz to be disolved. I have read 150 ml per oz (this may have been from you dont remember), do you agree. 2)Also what is the minimum concentrate nitric acid to use to disolve the silver. I have 15% now 3) To get the silver to fall out would table or rock salt work or what is best that is easily attainable. THANKS!!! THANKS!!! May-22-06 A: hi, I always tell people a simple amount, 140 grams per quart..... The lower your nitric stength is, the slower the reactions will be. Warming will speed things up by getting the molecules moving faster. Just don't get it too hot, or you will drive off your nitric acid in the steam! and...table salt or copper to drop out the silver. I personally like using copper the best for this! cheers, Charles Q: Hello Doctor! When refining metals with sterling silver and gold in the mix, would it be wise to drop the copper in the sterling out of the solution to prevent it from causing a gold-silver particle bonding? The copper would cause this reaction when you switched to Aqua Regia? Would aluminum in the nitric acid solution pull the copper out before you switch to A/R? I study your Q/A pages, as it is the best info on this subject I have found on the Net. Many thanks, philatel2003 May-22-06 A: well, you can not refine gold if it has silver in it with aqua regia. If you have silver anywhere in with the gold, you must mix it with copper and then use nitric acid to dissolve out the copper and silver. Doing this will leave the gold as a mud in the bottom of your nitric. This way your gold mud is going to be around 22k or higher so you would have no need for converting over to aqua regia............aluminum will push the copper out of the nitric along with the silver if you do not remove it with the salt first. You can also use copper to pull out the silver first and then the aluminum or zinc to drop the copper.....cheers, Charles Q: Hello, 1st timer here and have a few questions. I did not seperat the metals before soaking in the aqua regia mix. Is there some extra steps I should take to get more gold out. Thanks for your time. May-19-06 A: I need to know how much metal you tried dissolving into your ar and how much ar you tried using. I will bet your seeing gold flakes floating around in your ar! :) If that is the case, you added too much metal to the ar which did not leave room for the gold to completley dissolve. In this case, you will find gold flakes floating around and mud mixed in with other undissolved metal in the bottom of your bucket. That mud is gold which was pushed out by the excess base metal being dissolved into the ar. if it is something else, then tell me what you did and the ammounts. I am not real good on reading minds! Dr Charles ps make stannous chloride and test to find out if you recovered all your gold. Dissolve 95% tin 5% antimony(sp)solder into muratic acid. About 1 inch of tin to 1/2 inch of acid gives stannous chloride. Q: I am new to refining and using the AR process. In error, I added my Storm Precipitant to my AR solution without first adding the Urea. Can you tell me how I need to proceed? I'm afraid I lost the gold I was trying to recover in this reaction. Thanks... Joe email@example.com May-19-06 A: hi John, I need to find out if you see a white mud sitting in the bottom of your ar? If it is not a white mud, do you see a kind of clear to white triangular crystal in the bottom? If not, that is GREAT!!!! If you see either of those, then you will need to pour the ar into a new container leaving that stuff behind..... Once you have the ar in a new bucket, you can add the urea untill it stops fizzing. Once that happens, mix 1 cup of urea into 16 pounces of hot distilled water and add that to the ar. From there, mix smb and hot disstiled water and pour it into the ar and give it a good brisk stir. Your ar should turn brownish and stay that way. If it turns back to green, you did not add enough urea and the gold has re-dissolved back into the ar.....really you are fine! :) let me know if there is anything else I can help with. Charles Q: sir sorry to e-mail you again i was working on my AR-gold mix i added urea until it stopped fizzing and added more and let it sit for 10 minutes for the last to dissolve. The color of the acid was a very dark emerald green using 150 grams of Gold plated chips and electrodes to 1 Qt AR but when i add the SMB it reacts very strongly with yellow foam with some red spots that all dissapears into the acid. I mixed the SMB 2 oz to 2 cups water. ived added as much additional smb about 2-3 oz more and have not had any fall to the bottom yet. I have also had no gold fallat least none i can see. I let it sit for 10 hours and filtered it and still nothing. What do i do. And i also had an idea if you have ever thought about makeing just a simple tape just showing the process how it works and i guess how it should look. Right now id really would pay a good amount for that from someone who knows what they are doing. May-19-06 A: hi Mickey, Shor has the vhs video tape on acid refining that I sell in my store. Anyway, Try mising 1 cup of urea in 16 ounces of hot water and then add it to the ar. After that, you should try heating the ar up to 150f and then add the smb mixed in water and stir it in briskly. You will see the ar turn brown and it will stay brown. Then the gold will drop out overnight...........The reason why it turn brown and green again is there is just not quite enough urea in the ar to allow the gold to stay precipitated because it dissolves back into the ar. You should have no reaction with foming when you add the smb and water to the ar. You will always want to mix the smb with hot disstilled water before you add it to the ar. It needs about a 1 to 1 ration with smb to metal to drop out the gold. Q: sir i bought you all u need kit and have found that it seems to work very well so far. i have the gold dissolved in the AR and am going to drop it in a little while. You said something about the pentium processers i liked so i put them in nitric acid my and let all the legs fall off. What happened is that some stayed nice and shiny and others turned black. Now all of them were the very same type processor and i was wondering what happened are the dark ones gold also or were they just gold colored as you aid about jewelry. thanks May-17-06 A: hi Mickey, if the legs are still there after the niric acid bath, they just got coated with either silver or maybe even copper. All you need to do is give them a wash in nitric and they should turn gold color again! cheers, Charles Q: ok i dont think this is going quite right but i maybe im paranoid. i made nitric acid with sodium chloride and drain opener which contained concentrated sulfuric acid. it has been sitting in a closed container. i used 1/2 cup NaCl to 100ml of H2SO4. When i tried droping in a piece of silver jewerly the silver didnt disolove but instead turned white. i didnt add any salt at this point it was just nitric acid. since nothing was happenening i heated the solution just enough to disolove the silver and any NaNO3 that was sitting on the bottom. after that i added the table salt and the solution began to fiz and the whole thing turned cloudy white. There was some precipitate floating around but nothing would settle since the acid seemed to be of a similar density. i diluted the solution with distilled H2O so i could drain it with a coffee filter. when i drained it i had a white precipitate left in the filters. it was almost of a flour consistancy and didnt look like cottage cheese at all. t May-14-06 A: what was the silver you were disolving? Did the nitric acid turn red once the item was dissolved? If silver is dissolved in nitric acid, it will turn blood red if it is pure silver and a dark red if it is sterling silver. 50% silver will make the nitric acid looks brown. If the nitric acid turns either green or blue, it means the item was only plated with silver. Now for the white precipitate left in the filters, try adding a drop of ammonia to it and see if it changes color to blue or green. If it does, you will know it is not silver. Another thing you will want to do is dissolve some 95% tin solder into nitric acid and you it for testing the acid with your dissolved metal. Take a drop of acid with your dissolved metal and put that onto a white cloth. Add 1 drop of acid with the dissolved tin and watch the color change. If it starts off white and then slowly changes to black, you have dissolved silver in your batch. If it turns red, you have copper, instant black would be a indication of nickle........if your silver did not drop out as cottage cheeze with the salt, you might want to try dissolving the tin solder and using that to drop out the silver. The silver concentration may not be high enough to work with the salt. Q: the muric acis does that give off avapor right away after being poured? how log do i let it set before i add the sodium nitrate ? and how long do i let it set with gold in it? can i pour down the drain after use? May-12-06 A: you do not let the muratic acid sit open before adding the sodium nitrate, mix it soon after it is poured. Pre-dissolve 16 ounces of sodium nitrate in 2 cups of hot distilled water and add that to 1 quart of muratic acid to make the aqua regia................let the gold dissolve over night.................DO NOT POUR DOWN THE DRAIN!!!!!!! it will ruin your drain pipes!!!!!!!!! this helps page tells you what to do with the acid with aluminum and baking soda before disposing Q: When making the nitric acid what flavor of sulfuric acid do you use? Lab acid (10%), battery electrolyte (30 %+-) or concentrate (98%)? I started this venture to refine scrap silver that I have in the form of large electrical contacts. I also have lots of old PC gear that I did not realize was lucrative to recover and refine. I have two questions concerning this: When you break up the CPUs, do you break them into a few pieces, crush them, or try to split them in layers? A lot of my old sun SPARCstation components have gold leads. It would seem to me that dropping entire memory sticks, pc board pieces etc. would use up a lot of nitric acid in dissolving the other misc crap. Would it? thanks, John May-11-06 A: hi John, I use either car battery acid or 70% sulfuric acid drain cleaner to make all my nitric with. If you use it to strong, it will grow crystals that are a pain to deal with...............cpu's should be left whole so the ceramic fragments do not get in the way of your filtering later. Anything that I soak in nitric acid gets trimmed down removing the non gold plated material. The reason for this is, the liquid will only hold about 140 grams of dissolved metal per quart. Anything over 140 grams will cause the higher level base metals to start to drop out as lower base metals dissolve. I hope this helps, Charles Q: Hello Dr. Charles, I did the way you told me to. I cutoff all gold pins from 2 Pentium boards 2 486 boards and 5 386 computer boards I got five Oz of gold plated pins and all other gold plated scrap. I use 100ml of nitric acid per one Oz of gold plated scrap. What I got now is little less then a 500ml of blue solution that full of golden shimmer-glitter. If I let it sit - blue crystals come out from the solution, I have to re-heat the solution for them to re-dissolve the crystals. On the bottom of solution I have dark brown mud. Is this dark brown mud gold? Because it dos not get in to reaction with nitric acid. I use hotplate to heat up the solution, and nothing happened to the brown mud, I got brown fume to come out form the solution for a five minutes or so and then nothing. No un-dissolve metal left. Solution has acidic reaction to litmus paper. Is this solution ready for the next step? Can I use copper or urea to neutralize the nitric acid? Please help. God bless. Paul. May-10-06 A: hi Paul, everything you did sounds great. Since you have gold flakes floating around, let them settle to the bottom of the container. If blue crystals grow, let them be for now. Once the gold flakes settle, pour off the nitric acid not disturbing the flakes. If the flakes will not stay near the bottom, you can always use a coffee filter to catch the flakes. Those blue crystals that grew should hold the loose flakes down for now. After you pour off the old nitric acid, add fresh water will disolve the copper crystals then you can pour that off catching the gold flakes in the filter with the other flakes. If you can pour off the gold flakes and leave the mud, you should be able to melt that mud into about pure gold if it does not turn blue with the ammonia test. If the mud turns blue with ammonia, then that mud is going to be copper. You will not have to worry about having gold being dissolved in nitric since it will never happen! Only base metals, silver or palladium will dissolve in nitric. cheers, Charles Q: can i put fingers and chips ( processors) in to the nitric acid? May-10-06 A: yes you can, that would be the best option without loosing any gold to silver from being in the chips! Q: Hi, My name is Jason. I read the info on this site and I need help with getting ALL the pgm's out of catalytic converters and sense you said not to trust the ~plats from your cats~ lady, I've not been willing to pay the $100.00 plus dollars for info. A partner (who has access to up to 10,000 C/C's a month) and I want to refine and sell as many as we can. These pgm prices are unREAL! Please help me take advantage of this. Question: Pro/Con. Aqua Regia/filtering vs. leaching compound/elecrolytic precipitaion (electrolytic info aquired from: ActionMining) Thank you for your time...very greatful -Jason: firstname.lastname@example.org May-10-06 A: hi Jason, with as much material as you have access to, your going to want to look at some other means other than aqua regia. The system from action mining with the cyanide subs will work better for large quantities. Either way your going to have to deal with the EPA and have proper disposal of the waste compounds. Charles ps, you are right, I do not like that woman after some of the things she has said in the past! :) Q: I read some of your article and it makes for some very interesting reading. It sounds as if you are very experienced in the field of refining precious metals. I just have a simple question concerning coin cleaning. What would you say are some common household products that one could use to effectively clean coins without a lot of hassle? Thanks in advance. R Southern May-09-06 A: DO NOT CLEAN COINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Q: Could you please give salt addition amounts for nitric by the quart with approx 1/4 pound pins and other material added. It seems as if I am just getting copper to precipitate white sand but there are chunks of white like cottage cheese in with it also. How do I get that out? May-09-06 A: if your doing pins, your not going to have any silver to drop out. Silver turns nitric acid red to a brown. If your nitric acid is green or blue, that means you have other metals and no silver. Q: after i pour off the old nitric acid do i have to worry about losing any gold in the process? May-08-06 A: gold will not dissolve in nitric. Just pour off the nitric slowly so the gold flakes do not come out with the acid. If in dowbt, you can always use a coffee filter to catch any gold flakes Q: hello doc i have another question can i add more nitric acid to a batch that is already mixed and has pins in it ? it appears to be saturated with metals and not doing anymore to the metals. May-08-06 A: if the acid is saturated with metal, you would be better to pour off the acid without pouring out any of the metals and then adding fresh nitric Q: i apprear to have a crysalization build up on my undisolved metals what would cause that ? May-08-06 A: are they blue crystals in nitric acid? If so, it is due to evaporation. If it is on the metal itself, pour off the nitric acid and then add water to dissolve the crystals. Once they are dissolved, you can pour off the blue water and put the nitric acid back in. You might need to add a little bit of water to the nitric to keep the crystals from growing if you have low humidity. Q: once i make the nirtic acid with sodium nitrate and drain cleaner that is urine color and then add my gold plated parts what will i be looking for should i see an imediate reaction or will the reaction take some time? what would happen if i added water to the nitric acid with the pins in it? would that help or hinder what i am doing? May-06-06 A: make sure the drain cleaner is acid and not sodium hydroxide. Depending on the size of the items will depend on how fast the reaction time will be. Adding water will slow things down but you can always put it onto a heating plate to make the nitric work faster Q: I want to know about pins, clips, and the correct method of getting the gold out. I am a first timer, and have alot of pins. I am planning on saving my boards for later when I get more experience. I can practice on the plated steel pins for now. May-06-06 A: for your pins, if they have heavy gold plating, nitric acid will work the best. If they have a thin plating, then aqua regia will be best. To find out if a pin has a heavy gold plating, take a sample pin and soak it in nitric acid to see if the gold foil stays together or if it falls into tiny pieces. Q: how long will the nitric acid take to dissolve silver and other metals once they are submerged in the mixture. i have roughly 2 pound of pins and stuff. the sulfuric acid i got was black in color does that sound right? it is a drian cleaner from home depot. and after everything is dissolved i add the table salt to the leftover nitric acid and that will drop the silver? is it worth saving contactor pads to recover the silver i work in heating and a/c feild and o go throught alot of contactors? May-01-06 A: if the drain cleaner is black, it has other stuff in in besides sulfuric acid. That is not good for what we are doing here. It should be clear and almost look yellow like urin from the sulfur content. The time it takes to dissolve the silver will depend on the mass. The contacts you have may be plated with silver and you might be able to immerse them in nitric acid for 15 miniutes and then pour off the acid into another batch. Once you do that, you can wash them and inspect to find out if they need another dip into the nitric. You can cut them in half to find out if they are solid or plated. If they are solid, then to make it dissolve faster, you can melt them and pour into water to make shot which will help speed the dissolving process. Your asking how long it will take to dissolve is impossible to answer since you did not say how thick they are or how much you would be processing at a time................they should be worth saving with silver being nearly $14 per ounce of pure 999 silver!!!!!!!!!!! cheers, Dr Charles Q: Hello Dr. Charles. I have 1 Lb. of chips, I put the whole chips in nitric acid (how much quantity of NA?) for recovery of silver and palladium (how much salt and sodium Chlorate to use?). After, I crush the ceramic bodies, with a magnet remove the steel (how could I separate ceramic from metals?) and run this batch in aqua regia to recover platinum, rhodium and gold.(batch under 140 Gr.) How many ammonium chloride and Urea is used?. Thank you very much for the info! Jaime. Apr-30-06 A: hi Jamie, with nitric acid, you can put in as many chips as you want, just fill it up to cover the chips. To know how much silver you have, you have to test with stannous chloride and then add the salt to drop out the silver. You will NOT find any palladium in the chips. The only thing you might find is microscopic platinum wire. To make your gold recovery easier, do NOT crush the chips when you are processing them in nitric acid. You have to remove the bodies manually and rince off the gold foil. Once you remove them from the nitric, there is no need to use a magnet to remove any steel since it will have been eaten by the nitric acid! :) The is also NO RHODIUM in chips. If you use aqua regia to dissolve the gold and possible platinum, you can only estimate the ammount of metal that is in the acid. You must test the acid with stannous chloride to know if the metals are there. The urea that is needed will be about 1/2 pound per 1 quart batch of aqua regia as long as you keep the metal below 140gr. If you are over 140gr, then the amount of urea will be less than 1/2 pound. 10 grams of ammonia chloride will drop about 6 grams of plattinum. You ONLY do the platinum drop before adding the urea for the gold. I hope this helps, Charles Q: hello can you tell me what i need to do next i have removed the gold off some pc board fingers and need to know after i strain the echant souloution do i need to rinse the gold flakes from it if so with water or what chemical and what next to melt it the right way you can email me at email@example.com thanks in advance jim Apr-26-06 A: hi Jim, the next thing you do is pour off the acid leaving the gold foil in the bottom. Once you do that, add fresh water and let the gold settle and pull out the clean boards. You might have to use a squirt bottle to wash the gold off the boards as you pull them out, but that is normal. Once you get all the boards out, pour off the excess water leaving the gold down in the bottom of the container. From there, you can pour the wet gold foil into a crucible or coffee filter or even let it air dry. Adding rubbing alcohol will aid in the evaporation of the water. cheers, Charles Q: Hi Doc. Thanks for the free expert advice. You rule! I have an ounce of very pure platinum mesh , formerly used to make electrodes. I was told by a refiner to send it to them and they would pay me 95% of market. CAN THEY BE TRUSTED? I saw you laughing in your commentary when I read it and really am confused as to how reliale this process is... This is an ounce of very pure Pt metal.. Thanks Steve Carpenter Apr-26-06 A: hey Steve, if they are buyinh it outright, you should be ok. If you got them to do the refining for you, that is when you have to be careful. Garfield's in Pa stole 3 ounces of pure platinum from a sputter target from me. It was mixed in with some pure gold I sent in for selling. They said they had to do an assay and they only tested for gold. Once I got the report, they said it was too late to go back and test for the platinum since it already mixed in with their gold. cheers, Charles Q: Hello Dr. Charles, I'm just starting to refine and recover gold and silver. I'm really grateful for this listing's wealth of information. I've done some of the easy gold (fingers) and I've recovered quite a lot of fine silver from contacts. I have one that is driving me nuts, however. I have pins in old connectors, gold plated over some silver colored metal. I put 100g in 500ml of water and 250 ml of 67% nitric acid. It fumed and boiled furiously, producing a brown gas, and ran out of steam before the pins lightened. I added another 500ml of water and 250 ml of nitric acid to finish. the last part of this went much slower and calmer. I filtered the result, which was hollow gold tubes in much very fine whitish mud in a light blue cloudy liquid. I filtered it, and added salt solution to the liquid. That yielded a fine white precipitate that won't settle. What am I tangling with, and how do I conquer it? Thanks for your help. John Martin firstname.lastname@example.org Apr-24-06 A: hi John, Since I do not have the items in my hand and from what you are describing, that white metal is not silver at all. Since you described a blue cloudy liquid, that says copper, not silver. That is the reason why it will not settle out. If it was silver, the nitric acid would have been RED, not green or blue. Those pins were gold on copper/brass that may have been plated with tin or zinc. The white mud you found should be copper chloride. I hope this helps, Charles Q: Dr. Charles, I have just a couple of questions for you. I have been refining gold for a while with good results and I am now ready to give Platinum a shot. 1)After boiling the AR solution do you add the Ammonium Chloride while the solution is still boiling or let it cool down? 2) If you boil for a long period of time what should you add to the solution to replace what boils off (distilled water or muratic)? 3) Once you get a platinum sponge will my torch using MAPP and oxygen be ok for melting it back to metal. Thanks for your time. Apr-18-06 A: hi, Mapp gas will not melt platinum. Platinum melts at above 3000f. To drop the platinum with ammnoium chloride, the aqua regia must be boiling. If your ar has evaporated during the dissolving of the platinum, you will want to add more aqua regia or even nitric acid. Boiling the acid drives off the nitrigen part of the aqua regia in the steam so that would be what would need to be replaced if your liquid leves get too low. You are better off adding fresh aqua regia. If for some reason, you get crystals to form, you can add a little wather to help dissolve them................. I hope this helps, Charles Q: Dear Dr. Charles Reffiring to an email you received (YOU ADDED SALT TO THE NITRIC IF YOU DID YOU MADE AR AND DISOLVED THE GOLD etc Following the line, A.Dissolution Nitric, disolve everything but Gold & Platinum group. B.filter to retain the sludge. C.Add sodium chloride to filtered Nitric = recover Silver. Palladium is still in solution. At this point by adding table salt Have I made Aqua Regia Also your comment USING Cu to to precipitate Au Does this mean I can add copper filings or similar to AR INSTEAD of Sodium Metabisulfite I think you called it Kind regards Keith Apr-17-06 A: hi Keith, If you added salt to remove the silver, yes, the nitric acid will convert to a mild form of aqua regia which will dissolve gold. Yes, you can add solid copper, not filings to make the gold come out as a black mud. If you use copper fillings, you may be adding too much which would contaminate the gold you are trying to recover. When using copper to drop out your gold, it will aslo remove palladium with the gold if you do not recover the palladium with sodium chlorate first. If you recover the gold and palladium together, you can redissolve the palladium from the gold/palladium mix by using fresh nitric acid. I hope this helps, Charles Q: Howdy, Sorry to bother you again, but I have been unable to find the reference at SHOR on how to make the nitric acid using sodium nitrate. Is SUBZERO product the same as sodium nitrate which you sell. I am confused - as usual - can you please provide link to the formula to convert the sodium nitrate to nitric acid. I assume that I can then use this nitric to make the AR solution mixing with 4.5 parts muriatic acid, Correct? I dont want to create something that doesnt work or worse, something that is more dangerous... Thank you. aarchie Apr-13-06 A: The info is right here on the Scrap Gold FREE INFO Gold + Platinum Refining Help It is loaded with lots of questions and answers posted at the bottom or I am going to make fun of you for not doing your job of reading!!!!!!!!!!!!! The link for the shor website tells how to make aqua regia with either the subzero or sodium nitrate. then you asked ....Is SUBZERO product the same as sodium nitrate.... NO!!!! they are DIFFERENT. Subzero is propritary and sodium nitrate is a common chemical but they can be interchanged..............you do not make nitric acid and then add the muratic acid to make aqua regia, you mix subzero/sodium nitrate with muratic acid/hcl to make aqua regia Q: WHEREAS THE GOLD? ok I don't know what happened but I'm at a loss. this isn't a I did something wrong help me email . I have made nitric acid more then a 100 times to recover silver from wire and other things from mil. items as well as used it to recover gold from chips and pins,I have never made aquaregia but something strange happened the other day I had about 32 oz of used nitric sitting obove my stove for about 2 months that I saved becouse it hade a lot of gold partical that wear visible that passed through the filter so I saved and forgot about it. well a few days ago I was in the kitchen just putsing around and I poured this clear blue liquid into a cup with some chips that I split open, some gold board contacts and a small silver printed board with tiny gold processers. well the next day every thing that wasn't copper was gone? the gold was gone. I put a couple of heavily plated pins that I had trouble getting the gold off of with this same batch and some gold foil that came f Apr-13-06 A: hi Artie, is there any change you added salt to the nitric to recover silver? If you did, you made aqua regia and dissolved the gold. Your going to need to add copper to get the gold to come out as black mud. The copper will do a metalic replacement with the gold forcing the gold to come out. If you used tap water that is high in clorine, you can also get aqua regia to form with the nitric/clorine. Using copper will be your best way to remove the gold but if silver is left in the acid, the silver and gold will come out together and then the silver will need to be dissolved out with fresh nitric acid. No tap water or salt alled in this step untill you pour off the nitric and leave that black bud behind! Dr Charles Q: Hello Dr. Charles, When refining 14KW solid gold should you keep it seperate from 14KY solid gold or will the white gold refine back to yellow? Also if the solid gold in kinda thick should I melt it and water splash it so it is thinner, smaller peices and should I use a 2 step process (Nitric Acid First then Aqua Regia)? Thanks again, Pete Apr-02-06 A: hi Pete, there is no need to keep white and yellow gold seperate. Most of the base metal for white gold is going to be nickle or cobalt. Cobalt is used in the newer white gold and nickle is used in the older white gold........................... If you have a low k gold, you may wish to alloy it with between 25 and 50 percent copper and then process it in nitric first to help dissolve out the silver in the low karat gold. Your not going to find too much silver as a general rule of thumb in 14k white gold because the color would be something other than white. If there was palladium that was used to make the gold turn white, then you can still process that in aqua regia....................I hope this helps, Charles Q: I don't know if you're familiar with specific gravity test for platinum content. But if you are, I'd like to know if the following are correct figures: WEIGHT OF BUTTON DIVIDED BY THE WEIGHT OF BUTTON IN WATER.(A glass of water on a gram scale) TAKE THAT NUMBER AND DIVIDE BY PURE PLATINUM(21.45) (a melted platinum button held by a thin steel wire submerged into the glass)THIS GIVES AN APPROX. ASSAY IF THERE ARE ONLY TWO METALS IN BUTTON. This was given to me at a (reputable?) refinery. I'm asking you cause all platinum I've ever brought them was never over 89% pure to them. Did not matter what I'd bring in platinum. thanks dan Mar-31-06 A: Hi Dan, That is not a true assay but it can be used in a pinch. some of the best assays are going to be a fire assay or spectral analysis. Charles Q: Hey buddy! I've paid $95.00 for a vhs refining video casette that shows what I've just read from you for free a minute ago. how ironic!! Anyway, I'm a jeweler and have my little repair shop here in Sherman TX. And I've decided to stop sending my scrap gold to refineries and have fun doing it myself and get aLOT more out of it. So I'll be buying and using your chemicals and great knowledge in the very near future and As soon as I get familiar with such processes and safety. Thanks for this site. REspectfully, Dan the jeweler Mar-31-06 A: hey Dan, I think you have come to the right place for help. I do not charge a thing to help people but I do carry things from Shor just in case anyone can not find supplies. Any time you need help, just let me know and I will help you out the best I can........cheers, Charles Q: Your information has been extremely helpful and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with others. The question I have is once these metals (gold, platinum, etc) have all been refined and separated who are good sources for buying these refined metals in order to get the best price? Are there wholesale companies out there to sell to? I am not interested in selling retail. Mar-30-06 A: if you do not feel like selling it on ebay, you can always use someone like kitco.com Q: Dear Sir From 1950's military equipment, and also Harrier Head up Display units I have been removing the componants (many 1000's)from the boards and hope to recover the precious metals. But having read your comment (Never do the whole board etc)I am now wondering if I have been wasting a lot of time breaking this equipment apart. surly their must be more than just the pins I've already removed the pins from plugs & sockets(about 3 kilo's)and having smashed open a good cross section of the componants and stripped some of the wire. The wire has a most beautiful bright white colour, but only a thin coating I was hoping the componants would be the real cherry on the cake. Even the colour of the solder looks like it could contain precious. The total weight of this lot is about 3.5 tons. Do you think all this could be a waste of time All the best Keith Mar-28-06 A: hi Keith, if you have mil-spec scrap, you have got something that is worth the time working with. The scrap should have nice quanities of gold and silver. The scrap you have been seeing me talk about is the common everyday home computer junk whcih is not made anywhere colse to the same way as the military stuff is. The solder you have should be a silver based solder so with most of your items, you will need to work with the nitric acid first to dissolve out the silver and palladium. After that, you take the undissolved stuff and dissolve that with aqua regia for going after your gold. If you do it below boiling, if there is any platinum there, it will remain undissolved. You can take that and boil it in aqua regia to make it dissolve for refining...............the wire you have been seeing is either tin or silver plated, that is not real good for refining but it still has good copper value.......I hope this helps! Charles Q: Hello Doc, Is their any help for me? This what it is: I used 70% nitric acid and 35% hydrochloric acid heated to 90°C, and pore on the computer boards. The smell was not pleasant, had some brown fumes. I got green-yellow color liquid, neutral Ph with help from urea, cooled off to 18°C, run through filter. Collect the colored liquid. On the filter I got bunch of computer chips. To the colored liquid I add sodium hydroxide NaOH and heated a bit. After ~3 hours I got bluish liquid and a mad on the bottom of the glass flask. My question is their any way to separate these metals:( Mar-25-06 A: hi, I do not know where you got your instructions from, but they are really BAaaaaaaaD. Your acid mixes were swapped for the first thing. The second thing is you did the beginner mistake of trying to do the whole board without doing the proper steps. This is why I have the help page here for people to use! Your going to have to start all OVER AGAIN. This time, mix the acid 30 nitric and 70 hcl and DO NOT DO THE WHOLE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cut the pins off and leave out the solder and steel and nickle and silver and what ever else you got in with it. Start off with just the gold and stay UNDER 140 grams per quart of AR. Did you miss that from the help page? Next thing is, WHO TOLD YOU TO MIX sodium hydroxide NaOH in after the Urea? All you did by doing that is lock up any good metal that would have been dissolved into the acid. You did a BAaaaaaaaaad thing and you could have KILLED YOURSELF with EXPLODING ACID!!!!! really, you could have hurt yourself really bad by doing what you did. I think you need to go to church and pray thank God for protecting you................................. your going to have to start all over with the proper mix for the aqua regia. Here are a couple links to use for refining directions. This info will get you started. shorinternational.com/AquaRegia.htm shorinternational.com/subzeroinstr.htm .......................................I got to get to bed. Please read the 2 links I have provided and please, read my free help page! bless you, Charles Q: Hello again Doc! Please educate me on the life of a digested solution of various metals during mutiple precipitations: Can I precipitate metal after metal out of a solution without the solution becoming loaded? In other words, can I precipitate silver, palladium, gold, platinum, rhodium, etc dissolved in boiling aqua regia in sequence after the solution cools? Will the solution weaken somehow, and affect the ability of the precipitates to work? Thanks so much for the info! This site is a HUGE help to everyone interested in precious metals scrap. Looking forward to your reply... Morgan Mar-25-06 A: hi Morgan, I am not sure what kind of loaded you are talking about. The second thing is, you will never have silver being dissolved with gold or platinum. If you do, it will only be 10 percent or less....................silver and palladium can be refined together in nitric acid. You would then drop out the silver first with plain table salt and then the palladium with sodium chlorate...................gold, platinum and rhodium are refined together in aqua regia acid. These metals are dropped out with the first being platinum, then rhodium and lastly is the gold. If you go back and read the help page, you will see this should already be covered and your questions is already answered. The platinum is the only one where you must boil the acid in order to get it to drop. The rhodium you MUST let it SIT COMPLETLY STILL FOR 24 HOURS, DO NOT TOUCH OR DISTURB, this allows the rhodium to fall out all on its own. I say all on its own, but it is the oxidation of the liquid that causes the rhodium to precipitate out..........your gold is last unless you have palladium in the aqua regia then you do the palladium before you drop out the gold. Gold, rhodium and palladium are done at 80f to 150f. For Rhodium, the ar can be left at about 80f for it to drop. Palladium can be done from 80f to 150f. Gold should be dropped near 150f.......... ................................................ If your question was if you can over saturate the acid with precipitates, the answer is yes, that is the reason why you must test with stannous chloride to find out what metals are left in the acid. There is no reason for you to waste your time and $$ on trying to drop something that is not there. The only thing you would end up doing besides spending money, is making a mess on the bottom of your container with wet goopy chems!!!!!I hope this helps. Charles Q: Bill, you mention that whole boards should be ground up (as in a hammer mill or such) or burnt. How do you recommend burning them to get the gold? Can it be done with a torch? What is your recommendation for burning the boards? I know this probably sounds like a stupid question but my experience with smelting has not gone well either, so if there's a way to mess up burning anything I can do it. I think my flux sucks! Anyway, any advice is greatly appreciated. You are a great resource for us novice golddiggers. Thanks Mar-23-06 A: Bill? Bill who??????? The crushing or burning is not very good if you only have small amounts of under 2 tons. I put that there for those people who get massive quanities of boards..............Your not going to get any gold by just burning, that is just a step that would be taken if you had a steam generator to burn off the non metallic items off the boards. After that, you need to go to acids to dissolve out the metals from the ash...........your going to be better off by clipping the exposed gold items and pulling any ceramic body chips for processing of computer scrap............... Q: Hello, My name is George Markakis. I want to take you up on your offer for refining help. I will pay you to give me On Hand training. I can come to you. Short history, As Ebay only allows up to 1000 Characters! I want to start a refining bus. I have the opportuninty to get approx. 100 Cat. Converters a wk. I did some research here. FOUND MEGAN AKA Gold_Tudor. AKA @$&@$%!! I bought her book. In between hitting the buy it now button and being able to send the payment, I had a baby. A beautifull little boy that was born with a closed suture in his little head. Because I wasn't in the office (and wasn't thinking of anything else) I wasn't able to get her the payment until the 11th day. (Instead of by the 10th, as dictated by Ebay)... She left me my 1st and only Neg. Feedback and would not agree to go through the proc. to remove it. I've bought 100's of thousands of $ worth of coins off Ebay, but got Neg. Feedback from a $80 book. Anyway, Please call me or email ur #. Mar-23-06 A: hi George, I am very sorry, I can not do on hand training. I have turned down offers to travel the world and set up refineries for major companies with a pay of $500 per hour. I have my hands full here with my antique business. Now, what I can do is online training. It seems to work out very well for all the people that I have helped. The reason why I do this in email is it is easier for you to print out the info I send you vs. trying to write everything down as we talk on the phone. It always seems that whenever I talk to someone on the phone, they miss key info which they always call back to get later. I will say this to you right now, you may run into problems with the EPA with a large operation refining the cc inserts. There may be some extra steps you will have to take to insure the enviroment is protected as well as the safety of any people that may work for you. Besides